Candid Birth & Connecting with Your Body, with Emma Armstrong

With social media platforms increasingly censoring candid images of birth and women’s bodies, I got together this week with The Naked Doula, Emma Armstrong, to talk about why we need to see real women’s experiences online. Our wide-ranging chat touches on using the correct words for female anatomy in schools, how we set realistic expectations for birth, and how reconnecting with your body through periods, birth and the menopause is truly empowering.

Emma Armstrong is a mother, a birth coach and a talented illustrator. Her new book, The Fearless Birth Book, can be found on her website www.thenakeddoula.com

You can share your views and experiences of censorship of women's bodies on social media as part of the CensHERship campaign here - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSef_zhCZBkjLfIr46XkedZ2vSu6JtF5I_XVl33Lm4yQdWNFVQ/viewform

Please subscribe, rate and review, so we can get this vital info to as many parents-to-be as we can!

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Transcript

Ad - This episode is brought to you in partnership with iCandy. I've been using our iCandy peach pushchair almost daily for the last seven years and counting. And I've really put their five year warranty to the test using it for both my boys on muddy walks in aeroplane holes in and out of my car boot and aside from being completely filthy, my fault not theirs. It's still going strong. I can't wait to tell you more about my experience with eye candy later in the show. 

Megan Rossiter  00:24

Ad - This episode is brought to you in partnership with the bump plan which is honestly the best pre and postnatal exercise programme that I've come across in a decade of supporting families through pregnancy and the early years of parenting. For 20% off and access to a free pregnancy or postnatal safe workout. Follow the link in the show notes.

Megan Rossiter  00:49

You're listening to the Birth-ed podcast. I'm your host and founder of Birth-ed, Megan Rossiter. If you're looking for the evidence, the nuance the detail that's missing from your antenatal appointment, then I've got your back. The Birth-ed podcast is here to help you sort the facts from the advertising the instinct from the influences and the information you're looking for from the white noise of the internet. I hope you've got a cup of tea in hand and a notepad at the ready. Let's dive in. 

Megan Rossiter  01:15

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Birth-ed podcast. I am really excited to be joined today by my friend and fellow birth geek Emma Armstrong. You may know Emma as founder of The Naked Doula. She is a hypno birthing coach, a doula, a mom of two and now author and illustrator of The Fearless Birth book, which came out yesterday, at well, yesterday, as you're hearing it not yesterday, as we're recording it. It's Tuesday. And it's coming on Thursday. So Emma, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. And congratulations. How are you feeling?

Emma Armstrong  01:48

Thank you so much. I'm really really excited. You know what's really funny? Because when you say illustrator, I always think it's so accidental illustrator,

Megan Rossiter  01:59

when I wrote author, and then I was like, hang on, no, you're not just the author of it. And when you see the book, you'll see it is well and truly illustrated.

Emma Armstrong  02:08

Oh my gods. So I think that sort of just sets it apart. But yeah, honestly, completely accidental illustrator,

Megan Rossiter  02:16

a bloody good illustrator for somebody that I definitely couldn't accidentally illustrate. Congratulations, you ever and I wanted to get together this week, I suppose to sort of publicly extend a conversation that we've had behind the scenes, like many, many times about something that has affected both of our work, I mean, ultimately for as long as we have connected and been sharing birth information online, but certainly, I would say more so in the past few months. And this is the censorship of birth and women's health information being shared online. So if you follow either my work or Emma's work, or both, you will know that we both share pretty candid imagery and videos most of the time. Illustration Exactly. Even like, graphic photo, like literally like a cartoon drawing of it. But yeah, time and time again, whether that is the photos, the videos, or literally the illustrations, these are being removed by the platforms that we're sharing them on, despite there being kind of clear guidance saying that they are allowed in the name of education. So me you're probably a bit like me now where you can see or you can draw pretty much any image of birth or a human body and not bat an eyelid. And I think it was probably the third or fourth time supporting a woman in labour that I literally just stopped noticing nakedness. I think they say that it's a bit like how dentists see teeth. Like you just you just don't you just don't notice anymore. But I understand that the first time somebody comes across an image like this, it can be quite confronting can make them feel quite uncomfortable. It's certainly not something that we're kind of used to seeing. So shall we start there as our kind of, I suppose our opening point, like, why are we I would say particularly as Brits, but this definitely can go to other parts of the world. Why are we so uncomfortable with the idea of nakedness particularly when it's in any other context than either being a man or being sexy in inverted commas?

Emma Armstrong  04:28

Oh, do you know what we are completely disconnected from our bodies? Yeah, I think that from from a young age as we're growing up talking about bodies, it just seems to be like an uncomfortable conversation between parents when you go to school like it's all just very like Shamy and very like you don't talk about it. And then this is whole like, disgusting that is almost like the the female genitalia is disgusting. You know, it's it's dirty. It's disgusting. And you know, you can't talk about it, and you have periods. And that's, that's shown as being disgusting and dirty and horrible. And I think that all of this is just, you know, as we know, it's the same with birth, our minds are just pre programmed and conditioned to believe something different. So when we do see a woman in a power giving birth, you know, or naked nurse, you know, of that kind, even, like, you know, periods when you see like, women sharing things about periods or their cycles, or, you know, blood in birth and stuff like that. Everyone's like, everyone goes mad. They go crazy, because the the, they think that this is something that people shouldn't do. It's disgusting. It's horrible. It's, you know, it's a pre programmed conditioned message. From a young age. I truly believe that we are disconnected from our bodies. And it's horrible. Yeah, I

Megan Rossiter  05:49

mean, it wasn't. It was only even in the past, maybe two years that the adverts for things like tampons and sanitary towels actually had like red lips, not even blood, but red liquid in adults. And before that was either water, it was like, blue, blue liquid you remember like that? Yeah, and they would like, get in and it would like, soak up this blue liquid. And you're like, why is blue less disgusting than red? Like? It is? Yeah.

Emma Armstrong  06:17

Yeah. Isn't it funny because I think that collectively as women, we are tuning more into our bodies, aren't we? We are collectively, you know, starting to understand our cycles a bit better. And, you know, so I think that I think that it just needs to be shitting you know, we need to be talking about it and more. We need to be showing it more and people need to get to grips we need to reprogram ministry programme our minds. Yeah.

Megan Rossiter  06:39

And I think it does, you sort of said starts from a really young age and I was actually my, my youngest is in his now in year two, but last year at school they did like a PSHE lesson that kind of like the start of sex ed not there wasn't talking about sex, but it was talking about like the bodies and the different parts of the bodies. And the I think the conversation was around, like what is private what you keep to yourself. Like, that's like an NSPCC campaign. And they sent home the like reading materials, so the parents knew what was going to be talked about. And in this reading material, they were talking about little girls, and how like the private parts and how they shouldn't let anybody touch them on the vagina. And I was like, when a little girl is talking about that they're not talking about the vagina. They're barely even aware that that is there at this age. They're talking about the vulva. So I emailed the school and said, you know, if you if you're gonna do it, you must use the right is the right word. Oh, anyway, they then sent back where they got the resources from, and the resources came directly from the NSPCC, who were using the wrong word owed in their duck anyway, I and then, you know, this is me, if you know me now, I then got into a very long email chain directly with the NSA, who say Oh, and they have now changed it to change the word to volver. But that's it, right? If we cannot even use the right language around our children, it starts that little.

Emma Armstrong  08:11

It's honestly, I actually, until maybe in the life before, and I'd probably say until I got pregnant. Did I actually know all the words properly to name my vulva and vagina and my, my, my lady area? Like, I literally had no fucking idea. Because it's always been said to me, like, just as a vagina, you know, we don't even know we have no idea. And everyone still thinks I used to think that the vagina dilates. I used to. I used to think that God that opens like that gets bigger and bigger and bigger like that. I didn't even think it was. I didn't even know what cervix was. No.

Megan Rossiter  08:55

But like, why would you? Really? Yes, it is not in like, curriculum. And so then people get to being pregnant. And like, you know, when you're teaching, I'm teaching, I will have conversations with people. And you can see that their mind is like below. Yeah, or have not had no idea that any of this stuff happens. And say, I really think that seeing these images kind of opens up conversations and has a way of educating people in a way that words just can't on their own. What kind of benefits do you think there's kind of candid, unfiltered, honest depictions of pregnancy and birth and postpartum kind of brings,

Emma Armstrong  09:39

it has to be shown like this. We can't continue like closing our eyes and just, you know, it's like burying our head in the sand about birth and just thinking, oh, you know, you know, not understanding. When we don't understand. We don't know what it looks like, how can we possibly then go on to experience something and feel any sense of influence or cause hold over that I think that by showing these images and seeing them and seeing like women's, you know, voiceovers and vaginas and birthing babies, and, you know, babies coming out of I mean, I just love babies coming out of vaginas. You know, it's, it's wonderful. It's very wonderful. And people need to see that because it's natural. And when you see that, you start to understand your own body, you start thinking, Oh, okay, let me have a look. What does it look like? Like I always say to women, like, Do you actually know? Do you know what it looks like? Have you looked at it? You know, have you? Have you even touched yourself? You know, like, how can how can you know what your body feels like? Oh, what like things? How in less you're connecting with your body? You know? So I think that by seeing this, you're going to even if it is triggering for you is going to plant a seed, and you're going about, okay, like, this is what it is. Let me try and understand a bit more. And I think that it gets people curious. Yeah, it

Megan Rossiter  10:54

is. That is that spike of curiosity. I still sometimes sit there and try to post things on Instagram and realise I'm sitting on a train next to somebody and they have like been in for the shock of their lives. And they're sitting next to me. Oh, sorry. But yeah, it does. I think it sparks that curiosity, doesn't it? And the more we see something and I do you think that visual things have this in a way that like that, I think that storytelling brings incredible benefits. I think that like yeah, Britain Word brings benefits. But there is something about seeing things that particularly if you're kind of a visual person, a visual learner that just makes things seem real and believable in a way that you can't picture in your head. Absolutely.

Emma Armstrong  11:34

A picture tells 1000 words, you know, it's it's, it's like looking at a piece of artwork, and you and you interpret it, you interpret that as you interpret it, you know what to mean. But at the end of the day, like these images are, they're there. And this is real, it's real life. But the thing is, like, I think I've found with Instagram with the social platforms is, I don't think it was as bad as it is now. I think that AI has come in and now detects anything that's kind of anything naked, and just wants to get rid.

Megan Rossiter  12:06

Yeah, yeah. And so it's that it's but then saying that there is an awful lot of very sexual imagery on there. That's No, but that's exactly.

Emma Armstrong  12:15

But you've got only funds like all over the

Megan Rossiter  12:18

Instagram, maybe we need to set up like a birth only fans account where it will be around. Then we've got some really, really quick No,

Emma Armstrong  12:28

let's not do that. Honestly, I I found an account not so long ago, and I know what you're gonna I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, and it was breastfeeding. But she's got this. She had this fake baby. Oh, oh, obviously, I just thought to myself, like, this is the problem, isn't it? Because this is the world that we live in. Things that become when women's bodies and up don't get me wrong, like, you know what you can do? Like, I'm all for, like, you know, if I had the, you know, to the governor's have an only fans account. Without a Face. I don't know. But, you know, I feel like if I could like me something that like, Yeah, I do great. Like celebrating myself. And I'm not I'm not against that. But when we're sexualizing women's bodies is like is this sacred vessel that's carrying a baby and, and birthing a baby and, and just sexualizing that, and not in the way where, you know, I know, I talk about like, orgasmic birth and, and stuff like that, but I'm not on about that kind of sexualization, you know, there's, it's

Megan Rossiter  13:32

in the context of her not being she's not trying to be or wanting to be sexual, and it's being sexualized. That's the that's the difference

Emma Armstrong  13:41

isn't exactly Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we mean, we could get into that, because we know the relations between sex and birth, but in a completely essential, completely essential and powerful and incredible way, which is what sex should should be really seen, as you know, yeah. Um, but

Megan Rossiter  14:01

yeah, yeah. And so I suppose in contrast to that, and and I do think that the work that you and I are doing, and that lots of women are sharing on line of kind of these real images of their pregnancies of their births of their kind of postpartum. I think this goes so my eldest is now nearly eight. And this just didn't exist in the same way when he was born. And I think for a lot of people, this is still the imagery that they're getting is the sort of like, here's my baby and their white sheet and here's me and my white duvet with my white pyjamas. And like this sort of very less for curated posed kind of imagery of Mother motherhood and, and any images of birth were always like, hospital gown, all that still very like clean and clinical. And then you might see like screaming, but not in the kind of like, gritty, powerful way that you can see screaming in a very sort of passive receiver of medical care rather than the person that's kind of owning that room. And I suppose that's one of the big things that this sets out to challenge, would you say? Oh,

Emma Armstrong  15:24

absolutely. I think this is where we're like really doing a disservice to women, because it's, it's just so far from the truth. And then the problem is, is that when it actually comes to it, and you have your way, when you go into that motherhood, you know, you go and you go for that transformation, and then everything is shipped everywhere. And it doesn't look like that, and you feel like you should look like that. And then that's when you really get this downward spiral. And then what happens is, I feel is women then called appreciate or setting the magic of what's happening during that though, that postpartum period. Instead, they are continuously judging themselves and talking themselves down and seeing all this shit. That's just a load of bollocks. You know, it's just setting us up to fail.

Megan Rossiter  16:11

Yeah, yeah. But sharing that, actually that candid, realistic. And I think videos do this brilliantly. But on the flip side, you do sometimes get videos that are very curated, and they're just showing the calm bits and the powerful bits and you're not and then you're not seeing the like, that was so hard. Oh, I don't like this bit like that there is as that is as important. Oh,

Emma Armstrong  16:36

100% 100%. You know, it's funny, isn't it? It's like, we like shirt, I have this narrative. And we have our own story. And we pick up the bits that we we want to, you know, show and share and stuff. And I think that the vulnerability of showing things maybe like when something was difficult, or something was hard, can be really, really hard for people to do. You know, it's really hard, isn't it to show up and show yourself like that you've been crying all day, because you've had a shit day with the kids and you can't really cope. It's really vulnerable. That is, you know, so I think that, yeah, people find that really hard. And of course, they want to show just want to show like, you know, the other good parts or the good parts, but it's not real life.

Megan Rossiter  17:20

Yeah, yeah. And it's not real birth. Like, it's very occasional, that somebody has a birth where they they breathe and out swims a little baby into a pool. But just because something is messy, or hurts, or there were parts that were really difficult, that doesn't make it bad. And I think it's that's the narrative that we need to channel. Right. Exactly,

Emma Armstrong  17:40

exactly. It's all power is about how you actually you know, how you actually outcome is that in that moment, you know, is that it's okay, like, I always talk about this as well, like, with emotions. And people say to me, I women will say, Oh, you know, like, I just want to cry. And I'm like, try, let it out. Like, that's amazing. This is great. Love it out. Because actually, you know, it's doing your massive service, like if you're allowed to just freely be emotive during your birth experience. And it doesn't have to be like, Oh, I'm happy. I'm having a great time. It could be like you said, it could be that, you know, feeling really difficult, like feeling like you were really struggling or you know, crying or whatever, because that's all part of this journey. It's a journey, isn't it? It's like running a marathon. And sometimes you're going to be worrying that I'm going, I fall I'm fucking stopping. I'm not done. I can't do this.

Emma Armstrong  18:32

Why did I choose? Why did I didn't?

Emma Armstrong  18:36

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's this duality, isn't it? You know? Yeah. And yeah, that's what that's what makes it so beautiful. Because it roar.

Megan Rossiter  18:42

Yeah, exactly. And I think that it's just the cause we don't see that. And even in the work that I share, I still find that difficult to, to find images that really capture it, because people don't, don't put it up as much. But yeah, that's definitely the kind of the conversations that I think both of us are trying to kind of open in our work. It's like, actually, it's really hard, but that's fine.

Emma Armstrong  19:08

Yeah, it's okay. This is the thing like, yeah, you know, and this is why I, I've been using the word pain now. And I was told never to use that word, when I trained. But actually, I chose to use that word, because actually, pain doesn't have to mean what we think it means. It's not, especially with birth, you know, we know it's not inherently dangerous. Like it's, it's a signal system, but even in day to day life, maybe like doing we get a headache. I'm like, which has really hurt and we're in that pain. Like, that doesn't mean that it's anything, you know, oh my god, like what's going on? We don't have to go and pop a tablet. Actually, what is it telling us? What is the message? You know, and it's the same with birth? It's the same in birth. It's just a messenger. What's the message here? And that's why I just, I've stopped not using it because I think no, but let's use the word pain. Yeah,

Megan Rossiter  19:58

I think it's coming. indicating something back with us isn't in it's like an pregnancy. I always say Pregnancy is a really good time to practice that like gift. And we still don't we still in that first trimester, we're feeling nauseous, we're feeling exhausted, we don't phone in sick to work, because we've got stuff to do, you know? And it's, it's actually, what can you lean into, and what is your body telling you, if it tells you it needs a way, and you've got a meeting in two minutes, then say, actually, sorry, I really need a way, I'm gonna go and don't hold on to it for an hour. And it's not that you're going to do any harm by holding on to it for an hour. But it's just rewiring that brain so that your body becomes used to listening to the physical cues

Emma Armstrong  20:43

that it's getting. Right as it this is it and this goes back to the reconnecting with the body. Because what this is what we're lacking, we ignore, we ignore the physical cues and we just block it off, we block it off, we block it off, you know, we block it off in pregnancy, you know, we just want to just take some paracetamol or just take some painkillers or to just get that relief. And I think as well that, you know, when you're not prepared, mentally, for birth, and if you go in you do feel it, sometimes the easiest thing is to just go straight to blocking it off. But actually, actually, that's, that's a messaging service that we're blocking off. It's a whole messaging service, we're blocking off. So when we actually understand and then start to listen to it and go, okay, like, I understand what you're saying pregnancy, especially because we are so much more susceptible. And it's such great way to start really rewiring the brain, like what a perfect time in your life, to start digging in. And just rewiring shit like, perfect time. Yeah.

Megan Rossiter  21:42

And I think it is a time that sometimes when people were second pregnancies, but it is like you get pregnant, and certainly for me, I was like, wow, I've like re evaluated the entire world. My perspective on everything has now shifted and changed in Yeah, you start to view things in a totally different way.

Emma Armstrong  22:01

Absolutely. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because I think that we never think about these things till after I think about like when I had one, like when I'd Charlie, and I was like, oh, you know, and then I had a second and I was like, oh my god, life was so easy. With the first like, we've just worn life was precious. You know, but this is the thing is hindsight. But when you're preparing for birth, we don't want the hindsight, we don't want the afterwards, you know, we don't want the afterwards we want to like, let's get into it. Let's get down to business now. Yeah, this is I think, why you share what you share, and I share what I share, because people need to see and you need to be you need to be on it. It's

Megan Rossiter  22:43

there's something that I I talk about a lot now, which is what I call pass down wisdom. And I think this is what's missing from like, birth prep within the system, like there is an awful lot of focus. And I can totally see how as women, we would want to basically base all of our decisions on data and research because it feels tangible. It sits with how we've approached most decisions in our life, you know, you're buying a house, how much does it cost? What's the mortgage gonna be? How many square foot is it? We're like, right, we've got this data. And now I can base my decision on this data. And there are books that you can get for pregnancy that say, this is what they were happening at this stage. This is how many hours your baby's gonna sleep. This is a time where like, we love our brains in like a modern world. They're like, Oh, we want the answers. Yeah. But then there is something about, and this is what would have happened in like the years gone by, you would have known loads of women that had babies. And they would have told you exactly what you do at this point. And that point and what helped them and what was really hard. And you would have seen it and there was like this lit generational wisdom that helped. But we have become really disjointed from that. Because Because of in the 1970s, all birth went into hospital, most of our parents will have got shit birth. And then now we're like the next kind of the next, maybe the third generation that is birthing in this way. And we don't have access. Well, we do have access to that, through the generous women that are sharing these images and these videos and these stories. And it's actually bringing those two things together. The data and the statistics and research which we is helpful in many ways. But bringing that together with the kind of the feeling of it like what does it feel

Emma Armstrong  24:26

like? Honestly, Megan, why this? This for me is literally like I love talking about this because this is really, really important. And this again, is coming back to that connection with the body, isn't it? Because do you know what the data could say? Fucking all kinds of things. The way you look at it is going to be different for everyone. The way it feels is gonna be different for everyone. But what's the most important thing is how it feels in our body, like how does it actually feel? And we are so disconnected that we do look for answers. Oh, well, I looked at this and actually He says, you know that if I go to this many weeks that this, you know is going to happen. And what's the odds of this is this. And sometimes actually, when you get into that too much, you're just really like, messing with your brain on, you know, because

Megan Rossiter  25:12

you're playing like a lottery, like what's lottery is the best one. And

Emma Armstrong  25:17

I don't know which decision to make, actually just let it go. How do you feel? How does your baby feel? I mean, you heard it here first. But I'm actually working on a second book, like a journal, taking you through pregnancy up until birth. And it's this reconnecting with our bodies, we connected with our bodies so that we can make decisions that feel good. Stop looking outside for answers, you know, we need to actually look inwards. And that is hard, because it means that we have to really do some deep inner work sometimes to reconnect with ourselves. But yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think that now the wisdom that we do receive is from a lot of the times online, from, you know, things that being shared from doulas and other birth workers and things like that. But again, again, you know, I think that, I think that you just have to go with what feels right. It doesn't matter what anyone says. It doesn't matter what anyone says or what I was doing or what I share, or what you share, or what you know, that actually is irrelevant. Yeah. What do you what what feels good for you? You know, what's it been up for you?

Megan Rossiter  26:26

Yeah, that's it. Exactly. I would say, you're doing it wrong. If you trust an anti natal course or anything else more than you trust yourself like that. That's it. You're there. You're feeling it? Yeah.

Emma Armstrong  26:39

When people say to me, or when when should I do Kiko? When should I do Kiko? And I'm like, No, it's not about when you should do keep, like, that's not the point. Yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to and so I'm really glad about the book because I think I, you know, flow a lot more in conversation, but because I share very, like spicy like Baba Baba information. It's almost like people take that and they go, right, I've got to do this at this stage. And it's not that at all, it's more about this is really helpful. This is gonna help you understand the biomechanics of the pelvis. Now, just do what feels right in your body.

Megan Rossiter  27:13

Yeah, it's not an obstacle course.

Emma Armstrong  27:17

I was trying to do but it felt uncomfortable. Don't do it, then don't Yeah.

Megan Rossiter  27:20

Yeah. Go

Emma Armstrong  27:22

with what feels comfortable.

Megan Rossiter  27:25

Yeah. And it's like, isn't it interesting that your body might do these things kind of, of its own accord. This is why it's doing it. And because we love to cling on to science, because we love data. And we like God says, it's an interesting thing to learn. But ultimately, if you can create, and this goes back to the crying and pulling and bleeding and anything else, like if you can create an environment in which you can be completely uninhibited, then the rest will kind of all do itself the majority of the time, right?

Emma Armstrong  27:55

Is that is that like letting go, isn't it?

Megan Rossiter  28:00

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Megan Rossiter  29:13

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Emma Armstrong  30:25

I think that's another thing actually, about when you share images and stuff. Especially obviously, your account you share very, like raw images. I'm more like the odd video and a lot of illustrated stuff with your images sometimes. And even I love Eva rose as well. She shares some really, really good images. So those images can look really, when you look at them. Like the woman is completely out of control. She's surrendering she's, you know, and I think that that can spot things in people as well. Like, wow, like, even though that might look powerful, but look, she looks, she can't do anything about it a baby's coming at you not even a baby's coming in. I think that can spot things within us as well. 

Megan Rossiter  31:08

Yeah, it's a really revealing time, isn't it really vulnerable, revealing time when you go? You know, I often ask people, when we kind of first meet if I'm working with them, once one, you know, what is it like? What do you want, particularly for her difficult birth? Before it you know, what is it that you want from your birth? And often the first thing that comes up is I just want to be in control? And then we have to have this whole conversation over what what actually do you get to control like, what can you control? And what do we really have to work on, like surrendering the control of because there are things like our bodies, we don't have, we can influence them, we can control the environment, we can control the choices, we can control those things, actually what is happening in our body, and the communication between your baby in our body and all of that stuff. We don't want to control it, because when we're trying to control it, we're in the wrong part of our brain. And you know, it's a whole conversation for another day. But yes, I think seeing that can can bring up stuff. 

Emma Armstrong  32:06

Oh, definitely. Because you're like, Oh, if you're pregnant, and you're looking, you're like, Oh my God, that's gonna be me. And like, you know, it is this sense of control. And actually, that's a massive one that comes up, isn't it? For a lot of people just in you know, in conversations, it's either like this fear of pain, or this fear of lack of control, and it all it all interlinked with the same thing is this surrender and reconnecting to our body, it all just comes back to reconnecting to our body always, always. And the more that we're allowed to, I say allowed, because social media can be restrictive, but the more that we are able to share these kinds of things. And I have, I have noticed the difference. And I know, I know you would have done collectively as women, I think that we are coming back to ourselves, you know, I think more and more of us are opening our eyes and we are sort of going hang on a minute, like how can I actually work with my body? You know, like birth control? How can I actually, I mean, I was told I could get pregnant, like, anytime I must go on the pill like I must do this. This is and now I have a deeper understanding of my body and my cycles. Like I don't know what the actual What the hell like I'm questioning everything I was ever told.

Megan Rossiter  33:22

Its insane. Yeah, I mean, you go to school and they're like, have sex with a boy and you're gonna get pregnant and then you actually like try to have a baby and you're like, basically only get pregnant for like, maybe like two or three days and an entire month. And it's also quite clear, in a lot of ways for most people when that two to three days is just by literally like looking at your knickers is that?

Emma Armstrong  33:47

Yeah, exactly. And that's Yeah, but that sort of thing, isn't it? When you're sharing this is another thing that lie, I think, you know, can be a bit especially like, as in England, when you see like people talking about like discharge and having that conversation about like, you know what's going on in our underwear. That can really be like people just can't they just can lose their shit. Yeah. And especially mad as well, because men seem to have been, like, programmed to believe that this is like not a very nice like, it's a bit disgusting. And actually, you're right, like literally just by how credible just by seeing what's going on. Can tell us exactly what's happening in our body at that time. Like I literally know when I'm ovulating. I know now. I don't even have to I know I could feel it. I literally know which side the eggs coming from. 

Megan Rossiter  34:39

Yeah, me too. And it's it is I've tracked my cycles for almost 10 years and now it is I'll be sitting there one day and I'll be like, Oh my God, my life is over this everything. So what am I doing? And then I might hang on hang on hang on. No, it's fine. I went for like that tomorrow. And and it's it's things as an IT reveals so much and there must have been periods of my life where that was happening. Every single month, and I had no idea why I thought it was just me.

Emma Armstrong  35:05

Literally, I was actually talking about this yesterday, I was saying, Do you know what would be great? If Instagram could have a little thing where you could just like, put a toggle at the top of your profile to let people know where you are on your cycle, because then they know what they gain. I literally have just got I'm just coming into like my luteal phase now like, I'm getting to my nice like, this is the perfect day for me to be so sure. Like, this is great, you know, and then I'll be ovulating around the launch,

Megan Rossiter  35:32

which I think I think almost exactly the same point this year. So that's excellent conversation.

Emma Armstrong  35:39

Exactly. But you know, a couple of days ago, I was literally like, Oh, my God, you know, I was having that that moment. Isn't it funny, because when you understand when you're connected to your body, you do understand. And it's such a gift to have, that we all have it inside of us in this power. Because it's so relatable to pregnancy and birth because it means that you can navigate pregnancy and birth so much easier when you connect it to your body. It makes decisions easier. It makes you know how you feel easier. It makes managing sensations easier.

Megan Rossiter  36:10

Yeah, and I think one of the, like, best gifts that we can give to our children, and I don't have any daughters, neither do you. And so we I will never get to have this conversation from a kind of mother to daughter, but living in a house of men. Everyone in my family knows exactly what a period is. They know exactly when I'm on my period that and it's like they know what tabs are they know what tampons are. And they don't think it's weird, apart from my three year old did once asked me if it was jam, and I have to. Yeah, they know what it's for. And like a school mom, friend recently, and she's got an older daughter, and she was like, we're gonna have to have like the period conversation soon. So what do you mean have the period conversation? I've never seen you have a period, she was like, No. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is like, for our sons and our daughters. And it's not just our daughters, we have to change it for everybody.

Emma Armstrong  37:02

Do you know what, it just baffles me? Because I literally, like I'll talk Charlie through it, I'll be there in the toilet. And they'll be like, oh, and I'll explain what it is. Like, why what's happening? You know, like, he completely understands he knows, and he's like, chill with it.

Megan Rossiter  37:19

Because it's not actually weird. It's not

Emma Armstrong  37:21

actually, the thing. This is the thing is completely not so powerful. And I like to say like, you know, it's a, it's a powerful process. It's a powerful thing. And that blood isn't like dirty blood. Like, that's actually really fucking good. Like, I'm going to I at some point in the future, I'm going to try doing like little painting. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back out there with it. Because, you know, I still have those. And I still feel weird about it. You know, I still feel like, oh, I don't know if I could put that on your face. That's a bit weird. You know? So I know, like, you know, from my programming, and I'm not saying that everyone has to go out and put

Megan Rossiter  38:01

a message from today's episode.

Emma Armstrong  38:04

But, you know, it's just my little journey of like, connecting. Yeah, you know, but, but yeah, just being comfortable with with periods in general.

Megan Rossiter  38:12

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really funny. You should see my whatsapp communication with my dad. We basically say my dad's really into rowing. And we basically have no chat whatsoever. We just send each other articles he sends me like any article he ever sees about periods, women's health, baby's birth, and I sent him every article I ever see or Instagram post ever see about rowing. And we basically just communicate to each other in this way. But he has found me isn't very good. Like women's our episodes. And that have you listened to that podcast that is called, I'm gonna say it's called 28 ish days. It's a baby. It's really good. It's like a BBC sounds podcast that is about basically about the menstrual cycle. But it goes from like your first period all the way through to menopause. And I might feel like I'm just starting to dive into conversations about menopause and stuff. So my oh my god, that's gonna happen. And again, has anyone ever told me about it? No.

Emma Armstrong  39:09

And I saw this amazing post the other day, about menopause. And it completely reframed it. For me, it was amazing. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was just the way she was explaining actually, this is a, like a transformational time going from, you know, being in the cycle to becoming like this wisdom, you know, and I just was like, Whoa, like, wow, like what a process you know, it's like it's like the transformation of going and having a baby and then you're like, get to this point where who is leaving you like wow, that's that big has big. I just think it's wonderful. It's just beautiful. And I think when you can actually see yourself and your bodies and just birth and nakedness and women in this way, I just I think you're fucking winning in that Like to be honest. Yeah,

Megan Rossiter  40:01

I agree it is it is made me a million times more confident person. Yeah.

Emma Armstrong  40:07

And as well, when it comes to cycles and understanding your body and what's happening, you don't feel so guilty when you're like having a bad day. Yeah, by time, you know,

Megan Rossiter  40:19

because it feels like those explanations, right? I want to go back because it was something else that I wanted to talk to you about, which was, which kind of goes back to, I suppose, like the permission seeking that we do when we are pregnant, or in life in general. But that, that sometimes you can be told 100 million times. Yes, you've got a high BMI. Yes, you are allowed to have a water birth? And you're like, Yeah, okay, I get that. But, but I actually can't, because nobody's going to let me do that. Right. And there is something about seeing it, seeing a photo of somebody else who has already done it. That is just like proof and evidence for our brains of like, oh, well, she did it. So it clearly is possible. And I you know, that was just an example. But it can be it can be any number of things. So I wonder if there were kind of any things that sprung to mind, like stories that you've had people that you've supported that actually that has really been the evidence that they needed to then actually go and do what they wanted to do? And you probably have, maybe a personal anecdote, maybe to, to include?

Emma Armstrong  41:32

Yeah, I mean, do you know what I do get a lot, where people will say, women will say, Oh, my God, like, I found your account, or, you know, saw this or that, and it sort of gave them a permission slip. Which is amazing. And that's exactly you know, what the information out there is to do to like, trigger something in you. But it's still sometimes I'm like, Ah, you know, it's sad, isn't it? Because we do look at look outside for that validation. However, there is something in this pre programmed world of ours, you know, we can't all just get rid of this conditioning that we have. But yeah, actually seeing those images and seeing people do things is kind of like, wow, and I was thinking about, I was actually thinking and talking about this the other day, because I was talking about my birth. With George. I was just in general, like, I'm very, I'm a very, I'm a person who I don't really an outside the box kind of person. I'm like, well, anything can be done anything. I'm rich, like anything. And once we understand that, hospital policy is not law, and we understand you know, what all that means? You start to think, ah, like, I've got so many options, I'm going to explore everything, you know, because it's outside the box, this is my body and my birth. So with George, obviously, I ended up going in for the C section. But I was like, I'm pulling him out, or I'm gonna pull him out. Well, we've never done that before. This is, you know, that's not something we do at this hospital. That's what I'm gonna do, you know,

Megan Rossiter  43:10

that's always a good time to

Emma Armstrong  43:13

now is a great time to, you know, all your training to the test. You know, and I did and that was the first time the hospital had ever done it.

Megan Rossiter  43:22

So if people don't know, Emma had what would be described as a maternal assisted Caesarean, so people might not even know what that is.

Emma Armstrong  43:31

Yes. So you know, they gently you know, pushed him out. And they just hold him and I got him and I he was like, looks like he was still asleep. And yeah, I just bought bought into my chest myself. But the you know, but that that is like, this is even other things that people like don't realise until they've seen like, oh, yeah, but I had a C section so I had they had to cut the cord or I had a C section so he baby had to be taken away. No, not at all. Not at all. So yeah, when you by sharing the things that we share, I think and and getting this out there, especially images, actual real life images, like you say of like women, you know, like, women in the poor giving birth, or you know, or a plus size like woman particularly because BMI doesn't necessarily mean that you're a plus size woman by the way, you know, BMI is bullshit, but you know, actually seeing that just do something for your brain. I'm going to do it then I can do it. Yeah,

Megan Rossiter  44:33

a friend of mine recently who is class size she said to me because she saw a photo that posted and she was like, I have never I have never seen a photo of somebody that looks like me doing that. And that's it is that like when when we don't see ourselves reflected? We can very easily go okay yeah, but it's fine for everybody else but not me because I'm to this to that to all too fat to whatever in And actually you can go when you see it, and you see that women have like, paved the path for you to walk behind. You don't feel like some radical, like going against the grain person, you're like, well, somebody else did it. So of course, I can do it. We've

Emma Armstrong  45:16

got all these people doing it, you know, and this is the thing, it's forging the path, isn't it, like forging the way. And this is something that I've got about feedback for the illustrations that I do is that I can remember doing baby show a couple of times, and I had women of colour come up to me, and they're like, I feel so seen. And I'm like, wow, like, that's so powerful. For them seeing an image and there was one particular woman. And, you know, I do all different kinds of illustrations, different booths, different bodies, different colours, like, you know, all different kinds of, you know, diversity. And one where she was like, Oh, my God, she was like, I've never seen any a picture or anything like with, with boobs, like that. She was like, in there, like my boobs. And like, I'm literally and she was really blown away by it. And I was like, Isn't this so interesting? And it was so powerful Opava. And it comes back to this point, doesn't it of why sharing these images? Even if they are real life images or illustrations is so important for people to relate to? Yeah,

Megan Rossiter  46:19

yeah, absolutely. So million dollar question. What do we actually do about it? Like, how can we, you know, you're just gonna get me and I'm brainstorming now. But how can we challenge the mainstream media narrative of this poised, clean, clinical picture of birth, and show these gritty, real, honest stories that women are so generously sharing, or people are creating when it's just being censored at every angle? I think that you should buy this book. That's yeah. Also, I

Emma Armstrong  46:54

think that like, even my book cover was censored on Instagram. And I like what you're on about. But I think that we have to be smart. I think with social media. I think that the more and more that we show, the more that we do show. And the more that we are, you know, fighting gets and being vulnerable. And, you know, I know that we have to go through this whole process of like, review, like review review, but I think the more that more people do it, I think the better right in the robots. Right? Exactly. It's like, you know, creating a new algorithm algorithm. You know, it has, I think, the more that it's spoken about, the more that women demand when we you know, it's like anything, it's like, it's like anything on Instagram, it's like a trend, it's like things trend, don't know that out there how the algorithm works. I just think that the more that we push it, the more that we are sharing, the more that we are vulnerable, the more that women are opening our eyes and fucking saying shit and standing up for ourselves. I think that we'll see more more of that cuz that's what more people will want. Yeah,

Megan Rossiter  47:58

yeah. Amazing. So if people would like to get your book they can now it came out yesterday, Thursday, the second of what even month we may, oh my god as if it's May. I know,

Emma Armstrong  48:12

there's a second way. Yeah. So you can order it through. You can go straight to the decay living website, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it in Waterstones wh Smiths. You can get it in the UK, you can get it anywhere in the world. Like go and go and get it. It's it's very unique. And I think you'll safely safely say, Megan, I'm sure you've read lots and lots of Yeah, actually,

Megan Rossiter  48:37

I was telling him that I couldn't find it. And now we've been talking, I've realised it was literally in front of you, right here. It is. It is really full. It's like a really accessible enjoy. Like it's really enjoyable to look at, because it's colourful, and it's beautiful. And it's fun. But with yeah, great wisdom and tips and everything in it. So it's a good. It's almost a coffee table book if you want everybody to see three incredible naked women dry run of the book. But yeah, it's it's a fantastic book. And everybody should read it for sure. So I'll put a link in the show notes where people can do by it.

Emma Armstrong  49:15

Thank you so much, Megan,

Megan Rossiter  49:17

Thank you so much for joining me. We should definitely have to have another chat at another time. I think we could just keep going on and on and on. But yeah, really good conversation. And I think stuff that we haven't really talked about on the podcast before. The kind of wider picture of being a woman and having babies and know all about fun. Yeah.

Emma Armstrong  49:37

Bleeding, normal.

Megan Rossiter  49:41

It is. It is awesome. Thank you so much. see everybody next week.

Emma Armstrong  49:44

Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Megan Rossiter  49:53

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Birth-ed podcast. It's my actual life mission to get these conversations in front of as many expensive families as possible and you can be a part of this mission. Don't worry, I'm not recruiting you into my cult. But if you leave a five star rating and review of the podcast then we creep up the charts getting more ears, change more births, change more lives and come on, you know you want to be a part of that change.